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	<title>Comments for Secular Discrimination Report&#187; Secular Discrimination Report</title>
	<atom:link href="http://bunda.org/comments/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://bunda.org</link>
	<description>Exposing the pervasive discrimination and prejudice against the nonreligious.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 18:15:53 -0500</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on A Note to the Bigots: Secularism is not a Synonym for Atheism by Jeffrey</title>
		<link>http://bunda.org/2009/06/05/a-note-to-the-bigots-secularism-is-not-a-synonym-for-atheism/comment-page-1/#comment-6090</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 18:15:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bunda.org/?p=927#comment-6090</guid>
		<description>great article there are so many stupid bigots that are out there that need to read this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>great article there are so many stupid bigots that are out there that need to read this.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Fired for Being an Atheist by SDR</title>
		<link>http://bunda.org/2009/06/06/fired-for-being-an-atheist/comment-page-1/#comment-4560</link>
		<dc:creator>SDR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 16:26:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bunda.org/?p=937#comment-4560</guid>
		<description>Big Guy,

You&#039;re right to an extent; no one should be automatically assuming Amanda is telling the truth, which is exactly why I didn&#039;t.  In stories like this I always make it clear that this is what the person is claiming, not necessarily the truth or the entire story.  I, at least, am not automatically assuming anything.  I am simply reporting what is being claimed.  Should I never report on claims of discrimination against atheists simply because the person may not be telling the truth?  If it turns out Amanda is the one lying, I will be the first to post an update and to make it clear that it is disgusting to lie about such a thing, as it only hurts those who have legitimate discrimination complaints.

But....

In this situation Dr. Dawson basically admitted that Amanda and her husband&#039;s atheism is the reason she was fired.  If you look at any of the links provided you will see that he admitted such to the media when he was first contacted.  It was only later that he changed his tune and started claiming that it had anything to do with work performance.

And who is this &quot;everybody&quot; who are assuming she is telling the truth?  I certainly didn&#039;t, using language such as &quot;She claims.&quot;  It seems that you are arguing against a nonexistent straw man, at least on this site, due to your own apparent bias toward believing the religious party.  I have my own bias too, of course, but I self-consciously try very hard to recognize this and avoid letting it affect my analysis, especially in stories such as this.  I make sure, unless the evidence is absolutely indisputable, to make it clear that this is a claim that is being made and there are three sides to every story: one person&#039;s story, the other person&#039;s story, and the truth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Big Guy,</p>
<p>You&#8217;re right to an extent; no one should be automatically assuming Amanda is telling the truth, which is exactly why I didn&#8217;t.  In stories like this I always make it clear that this is what the person is claiming, not necessarily the truth or the entire story.  I, at least, am not automatically assuming anything.  I am simply reporting what is being claimed.  Should I never report on claims of discrimination against atheists simply because the person may not be telling the truth?  If it turns out Amanda is the one lying, I will be the first to post an update and to make it clear that it is disgusting to lie about such a thing, as it only hurts those who have legitimate discrimination complaints.</p>
<p>But&#8230;.</p>
<p>In this situation Dr. Dawson basically admitted that Amanda and her husband&#8217;s atheism is the reason she was fired.  If you look at any of the links provided you will see that he admitted such to the media when he was first contacted.  It was only later that he changed his tune and started claiming that it had anything to do with work performance.</p>
<p>And who is this &#8220;everybody&#8221; who are assuming she is telling the truth?  I certainly didn&#8217;t, using language such as &#8220;She claims.&#8221;  It seems that you are arguing against a nonexistent straw man, at least on this site, due to your own apparent bias toward believing the religious party.  I have my own bias too, of course, but I self-consciously try very hard to recognize this and avoid letting it affect my analysis, especially in stories such as this.  I make sure, unless the evidence is absolutely indisputable, to make it clear that this is a claim that is being made and there are three sides to every story: one person&#8217;s story, the other person&#8217;s story, and the truth.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Fired for Being an Atheist by Big Guy</title>
		<link>http://bunda.org/2009/06/06/fired-for-being-an-atheist/comment-page-1/#comment-4558</link>
		<dc:creator>Big Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 15:14:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bunda.org/?p=937#comment-4558</guid>
		<description>Why does everybody automatically assume that Dr. Dawson is the one that is lying, doesn&#039;t it seem reasonalbe that maybe Amanda is attacking him because of what he believes?  And maybe just maybe, she was fired because she was incompetent?
If someone is fired because they can&#039;t do the job, it does not matter what their belief is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why does everybody automatically assume that Dr. Dawson is the one that is lying, doesn&#8217;t it seem reasonalbe that maybe Amanda is attacking him because of what he believes?  And maybe just maybe, she was fired because she was incompetent?<br />
If someone is fired because they can&#8217;t do the job, it does not matter what their belief is.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Texas School District Won&#8217;t Do Business With an Atheist by RLWemm</title>
		<link>http://bunda.org/2009/04/05/texas-school-district-wont-do-business-with-an-atheist/comment-page-1/#comment-4509</link>
		<dc:creator>RLWemm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 07:26:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bunda.org/?p=801#comment-4509</guid>
		<description>My business has a &quot;don&#039;t ask, don&#039;t tell&quot; policy in regards to religion.  You don&#039;t ask me what my religion is and  I don&#039;t tell you about mine, whether you want to hear about it or not.

In order not to discriminate against a person on the grounds of religion I believe it is better to avoid the topic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My business has a &#8220;don&#8217;t ask, don&#8217;t tell&#8221; policy in regards to religion.  You don&#8217;t ask me what my religion is and  I don&#8217;t tell you about mine, whether you want to hear about it or not.</p>
<p>In order not to discriminate against a person on the grounds of religion I believe it is better to avoid the topic.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Texas School District Won&#8217;t Do Business With an Atheist by Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://bunda.org/2009/04/05/texas-school-district-wont-do-business-with-an-atheist/comment-page-1/#comment-4398</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 05:49:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bunda.org/?p=801#comment-4398</guid>
		<description>detrimental reliance.  If the party lead him to believe that he would be obtaining the contract and he relied on this belief to his detriment, such as making some sort of financial sacrifice due to his expectation of landing the contract, he may be able to sue them.  discrimination against someone due to their religion (even atheism) is protected by the federal govt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>detrimental reliance.  If the party lead him to believe that he would be obtaining the contract and he relied on this belief to his detriment, such as making some sort of financial sacrifice due to his expectation of landing the contract, he may be able to sue them.  discrimination against someone due to their religion (even atheism) is protected by the federal govt.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Texas School District Won&#8217;t Do Business With an Atheist by Stephen McClelland</title>
		<link>http://bunda.org/2009/04/05/texas-school-district-wont-do-business-with-an-atheist/comment-page-1/#comment-4390</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen McClelland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:56:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bunda.org/?p=801#comment-4390</guid>
		<description>I live in Gulfport, MS.  Until recently, I ran a small custom cabinetry shop, catering to high-end kitchen and bath consumers.  It took me some time to come to terms with the politics involved in simply doing business.

I didn&#039;t have to go through more than about 5 projects before a customer asked, &quot;What church do you attend?&quot;.  I carefully responded that I was not yet a member of a church, as I had recently moved here, and had not yet seeked out an establishment that I was comfortable with.  That was not a sufficient answer, and simply by not being able to associate myself with a specific church, I lost the contract.  The customer said, &quot;I want to KNOW that the person working for me is a GOOD Christian!&quot;  I told him that I had not claimed that I was not, but this was still not good enough.

I would normally define myself as an Atheist for lack of a more fitting category.  I feel as though I am a very spiritual person, but my beliefs are based on Nature, Nurture, Logic, and Science as we know it.  I have loose opinions, and I like to believe in something like a God, but my God is more of a process, set of rules, the way of the universe, rather than some benevolent creature.  I cannot express these outlooks openly without persecution.  What is odd, is that holding a conversation with a Christian about such thoughts, usually leads to being accused of oppressing the church, when it seems more like I am the one being oppressed.

I eventually left the cabinet company, in the incapable hands of my silent partner.  After a year and a half of building custom cabinetry, I found that at least 1 of every 3 jobs in this area required a prerequisite conversation about faith, and what church I attend.  To succeed in business, I actually had to start attending church, and claiming faith.  It didn&#039;t take much longer for me to get completely sick of it.  I was lying to my customers, and lying to myself.  I simply could not do it anymore.  Now I am focused on Graphic Arts, as a pixel pusher, or an artist is rarely expected to express religion in order to receive work.

Christian society in the U.S. has become overly dominant.  Many people go to church simply as a political or business decision (not that they would admit it).  Here in the South, it is nearly impossible to succeed in business without maintaining a personality in the church.  Not only is this absolutely ridiculous, but it seems to me that the church is creating hypocrites by the truckload.  Sincerity, compassion, acceptance, and consideration are not only unnecessary in the church, but are practically discouraged.  Conformity or oppression, is what I see more often.

I am not afraid to express my beliefs, but I have found time and time again that doing so is either counter-productive (usually the case, even to the point of possibly eliciting violence from religious parties), or at least, my expression is generally a waste of time.  Blind faith, rigid conformity, and complete oblivion of personal thought is all that I see being cultured in our churches, and those who actually want to expand their consciousness, consider new ideas, or actually (not figuratively) explore spirituality are condemned, boycotted, slandered, and prayed for (how insulting!).

I don&#039;t knock on your door, and tell you you are wrong.  I don&#039;t judge the quality of your work by the time you spend in church.  I don&#039;t even find occasion to try to offer contradictory ideas to people of faith.  Why must my wish to abstain from the fight cause my life such strife, hey, strife inflicted by a &quot;compassionate&quot; Christian culture?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I live in Gulfport, MS.  Until recently, I ran a small custom cabinetry shop, catering to high-end kitchen and bath consumers.  It took me some time to come to terms with the politics involved in simply doing business.</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t have to go through more than about 5 projects before a customer asked, &#8220;What church do you attend?&#8221;.  I carefully responded that I was not yet a member of a church, as I had recently moved here, and had not yet seeked out an establishment that I was comfortable with.  That was not a sufficient answer, and simply by not being able to associate myself with a specific church, I lost the contract.  The customer said, &#8220;I want to KNOW that the person working for me is a GOOD Christian!&#8221;  I told him that I had not claimed that I was not, but this was still not good enough.</p>
<p>I would normally define myself as an Atheist for lack of a more fitting category.  I feel as though I am a very spiritual person, but my beliefs are based on Nature, Nurture, Logic, and Science as we know it.  I have loose opinions, and I like to believe in something like a God, but my God is more of a process, set of rules, the way of the universe, rather than some benevolent creature.  I cannot express these outlooks openly without persecution.  What is odd, is that holding a conversation with a Christian about such thoughts, usually leads to being accused of oppressing the church, when it seems more like I am the one being oppressed.</p>
<p>I eventually left the cabinet company, in the incapable hands of my silent partner.  After a year and a half of building custom cabinetry, I found that at least 1 of every 3 jobs in this area required a prerequisite conversation about faith, and what church I attend.  To succeed in business, I actually had to start attending church, and claiming faith.  It didn&#8217;t take much longer for me to get completely sick of it.  I was lying to my customers, and lying to myself.  I simply could not do it anymore.  Now I am focused on Graphic Arts, as a pixel pusher, or an artist is rarely expected to express religion in order to receive work.</p>
<p>Christian society in the U.S. has become overly dominant.  Many people go to church simply as a political or business decision (not that they would admit it).  Here in the South, it is nearly impossible to succeed in business without maintaining a personality in the church.  Not only is this absolutely ridiculous, but it seems to me that the church is creating hypocrites by the truckload.  Sincerity, compassion, acceptance, and consideration are not only unnecessary in the church, but are practically discouraged.  Conformity or oppression, is what I see more often.</p>
<p>I am not afraid to express my beliefs, but I have found time and time again that doing so is either counter-productive (usually the case, even to the point of possibly eliciting violence from religious parties), or at least, my expression is generally a waste of time.  Blind faith, rigid conformity, and complete oblivion of personal thought is all that I see being cultured in our churches, and those who actually want to expand their consciousness, consider new ideas, or actually (not figuratively) explore spirituality are condemned, boycotted, slandered, and prayed for (how insulting!).</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t knock on your door, and tell you you are wrong.  I don&#8217;t judge the quality of your work by the time you spend in church.  I don&#8217;t even find occasion to try to offer contradictory ideas to people of faith.  Why must my wish to abstain from the fight cause my life such strife, hey, strife inflicted by a &#8220;compassionate&#8221; Christian culture?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Kansas State &#8220;Individuals for Freethought&#8221; President Defends the Group&#8217;s Existence by Jessica Ice</title>
		<link>http://bunda.org/2009/05/07/kansas-state-individuals-for-freethought-president-defends-the-groups-existence/comment-page-1/#comment-4326</link>
		<dc:creator>Jessica Ice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:31:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bunda.org/?p=887#comment-4326</guid>
		<description>Hey, I just found this today when I googled my group. That was an excellent response to Russel&#039;s &quot;argument&quot;. Thanks for this blog and reporting stuff like this!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, I just found this today when I googled my group. That was an excellent response to Russel&#8217;s &#8220;argument&#8221;. Thanks for this blog and reporting stuff like this!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Texas School District Won&#8217;t Do Business With an Atheist by SDR</title>
		<link>http://bunda.org/2009/04/05/texas-school-district-wont-do-business-with-an-atheist/comment-page-1/#comment-4210</link>
		<dc:creator>SDR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 19:42:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bunda.org/?p=801#comment-4210</guid>
		<description>Ed,

You are treading on dangerous ground.  Religious discrimination in hiring isn&#039;t acceptable in a country with religious freedom, whether it is the nonreligious doing it against us, or us doing it against the religious.  Remember that the majority of the United States population is religious to some degree.  In practically all cases, someone can be completely secular on the job, doing their job without bringing religion into it no matter what they believe.  To deny employment simply for privately held beliefs (although why this would come up in an application/interview I don&#039;t know) is the same discrimination that quietly (and sometimes not so quietly) happens to the nonreligious.

Of course, if there is good reason to believe the person&#039;s religious beliefs would for some reason preclude them from being able to do the job effectively, that&#039;s a different story.  Rejecting that candidate would not be discrimination because it rejecting someone who cannot do the job effectively, which is a perfectly valid reason.  If someone was to let his religion affect his ability to do the job, such as when you say:



&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;em&gt;I don’t want to be paying good money for someone to work on something for me when they might just turn around and pray that it turns out well&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Then that is of course not someone you want working for you – that person cannot effectively do the job he was hired for.  The majority of religious people can separate their religion from their work and do every day.

Don&#039;t become what we are fighting against.  No one should be discriminated against for simply having religious belief just as no one should be for not having religious belief.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ed,</p>
<p>You are treading on dangerous ground.  Religious discrimination in hiring isn&#8217;t acceptable in a country with religious freedom, whether it is the nonreligious doing it against us, or us doing it against the religious.  Remember that the majority of the United States population is religious to some degree.  In practically all cases, someone can be completely secular on the job, doing their job without bringing religion into it no matter what they believe.  To deny employment simply for privately held beliefs (although why this would come up in an application/interview I don&#8217;t know) is the same discrimination that quietly (and sometimes not so quietly) happens to the nonreligious.</p>
<p>Of course, if there is good reason to believe the person&#8217;s religious beliefs would for some reason preclude them from being able to do the job effectively, that&#8217;s a different story.  Rejecting that candidate would not be discrimination because it rejecting someone who cannot do the job effectively, which is a perfectly valid reason.  If someone was to let his religion affect his ability to do the job, such as when you say:</p>
<blockquote><p><em>I don’t want to be paying good money for someone to work on something for me when they might just turn around and pray that it turns out well</em></p></blockquote>
<p>Then that is of course not someone you want working for you – that person cannot effectively do the job he was hired for.  The majority of religious people can separate their religion from their work and do every day.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t become what we are fighting against.  No one should be discriminated against for simply having religious belief just as no one should be for not having religious belief.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Texas School District Won&#8217;t Do Business With an Atheist by Ed</title>
		<link>http://bunda.org/2009/04/05/texas-school-district-wont-do-business-with-an-atheist/comment-page-1/#comment-4208</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 18:54:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bunda.org/?p=801#comment-4208</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t imagine that I would want to hire someone that worships one of the numerous fictional deities.  I don&#039;t want to be paying good money for someone to work on something for me when they might just turn around and pray that it turns out well...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t imagine that I would want to hire someone that worships one of the numerous fictional deities.  I don&#8217;t want to be paying good money for someone to work on something for me when they might just turn around and pray that it turns out well&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on Why School Vouchers Violate the Establishment Clause by Dent Repair School Guy</title>
		<link>http://bunda.org/2009/03/04/action-alert-stop-the-federal-funding-of-religious-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-3933</link>
		<dc:creator>Dent Repair School Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 20:27:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bunda.org/?p=644#comment-3933</guid>
		<description>This is a very interesting subject. Do you think that there should be public catholic schools that accept funds from the state?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a very interesting subject. Do you think that there should be public catholic schools that accept funds from the state?</p>
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